The Voynich Ninja

(29-03-2016, 03:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Helmut, do you have an example of a ram with this pattern?

I do think the feet are supposed to represent hooves. They look a lot like the way hooves were sometimes drawn in Roman mosaics. So I wouldn't discount the ram theory right away, but I'm not convinced yet about scales for wool.

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There are several examples

(30-03-2016, 08:49 AM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-03-2016, 03:58 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Helmut, do you have an example of a ram with this pattern?

I do think the feet are supposed to represent hooves. They look a lot like the way hooves were sometimes drawn in Roman mosaics. So I wouldn't discount the ram theory right away, but I'm not convinced yet about scales for wool.

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There are several examples

Uhh no. All of those sheep have either no pattern or something that looks more woolly than scaly. All those images show is a stunning shortage of halos, shepherds and angel wings in the Voynich images.

(30-03-2016, 06:04 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....

The comparison picture of the possibly dead animal, shown above by Koen, always reminded me of the emblem of the Knights of the Golden Fleece, and even though this order started after the probable creation of the MS, the theme is of course much older.

...



(This is just an arbitrary example - one of the first that Google search turns up).

So..... how about a dead ram on a celestial sacrifice table?

Hi Rene,

I like the idea of the golden fleece reference, and agree that the Order's emblem is visually very similar, especially to the red creature in the water.
Of course, there's always the problem of finding a comparable image somewhere (especially to the celestial sacrificial table part), but the Voynich illustrator could very well have been innovating.

The Order of the Golden Fleece was created in 1430.
By 1435, there were already 4 chapters in the Order: Bruges, Lille, Dijon and Brussels. 
I don't know why you say it's too late, to me this seems to be exactly on target!

From your You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
"In 2009 the parchment of the Voynich MS was subjected to radio-carbon dating and the result was that this parchment dates to sometime between 1404 and 1438 with 95% probability.... The 95% probability interval lies between 1404 and 1435".
And of course, as you mention, that's just the vellum, not an indication of when the inscriptions were made.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

A little more about the order of the Golden Fleece:
The Order was founded during a wedding (Philip III of Burgundy and Isabelle of Portugal), this might tie in with the ring-bearing nymph below the postulated "dead ram".

And, a few months after the creation of the order, a French poet (Michault Taillevent) wrote the "Dream of the Golden Fleece" (Le Songe de la Toison d'Or), where he describes in detail his oneiric vision of the knights and insignia of the Order of the Golden Fleece, to which he is led by a fair maiden (!) whose name is "Bonne Renommée" (Good Reputation) and her cohort of virtuous ladies named after other chivalrous qualities.
This might tie in with the nymph below as well, and account for the fleece's placement on a nebuly line, if it is seen in a dream...
If anyone's interested, you can read a digitized reprint You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Warning: the text is incredibly boring, read only if counting sheep (or armadillos, or pangolins) doesn't work for you...

Hello,

Here are heraldic lines of division.
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Here is the Wikipedia example of a nebuly line.
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Please note the difference between nebuly and wavy. So, for instance, in the Athena example, I do see a band with a series of loops, just adjacent to and outside of the black band on the collar, perhaps they are a depiction of ruffles. I do not see a good representation of a nebuly line.

Here is an excellent example of the use of nebuly lines relevant to the VMs.
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And in the VMs illustration in the central image of the Nine Rosettes, there is a rendition of the blue and white cloud pattern (Wolkenband) that is nearly equal to the more famous examples above. [Nebuly from the Latin, nebula, or cloud.]

Don of Tallahassee made a collection of such images just last year. The general purpose of the cloud band is indicate a cosmic boundary. Oresme's cosmos is contained inside the nebuly line. More commonly, however, as in Christine de Pizan or the Apocalypse Tapestry, they indicate a celestial boundary where a supernatural being, either classical or Christian, is manifest in the mortal world.

The other thing is that the use of the nebuly line is not exclusive in this sort of boundary representation. A wavy line can be used in a cloud-like pattern, also painted in blue and white. However there is another way to represent this celestial boundary that uses other heraldic lines and different colors. The fiery, solar manifestations, such as those of the Bedford Master, present indented and rayonny lines in red, orange, yellow and gold. Hildegard of Bingen used a raguly line in red and orange.

VMs Quire 13 contains a number of clear  examples where nebuly lines are used. Is there some reason we need to assume that the creator of these illustrations was not aware of what they were drawing? Nebuly lines are used in the VMs because they have the same connotations as when used elsewhere. While it is interesting to find early historical examples of such similar patterns, take the Spartan use of Lambda on their shields compared with a chevron, the real point is to set the time of this comparison with the more probable time of manuscript creation - for which we take the Carbon-14 parchment dates and add *whatever* you like. I think that puts the chronology well within a period where heraldry was well established and clearly known in many European locations, which we can call 1450 +/- ???. Nobody's going for more than three digits?? Examples of the VMs use of heraldry are found in the Zodiac's Pisces and Aries pages.

What's up with the 'celestial sacrificial table' idea? Does anybody have an illustration of one with nebuly lines?
Is that supposed to be the corner of the table in the VMs illustration? A celestial altar!

Perhaps the message is that it is the sacrifice of the ram that brings the rains in spring, that annoying collection of stipples that occurs in the VMs illustration.  April showers.

(30-03-2016, 07:33 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here is an excellent example of the use of nebuly lines relevant to the VMs.
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Here is one from 1506 - Johannes Virdung
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Thanks Ellie.

That's a great example, particularly interesting because of the place and time.

(30-03-2016, 01:37 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(30-03-2016, 06:04 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....  reminded me of the emblem of the Knights of the Golden Fleece, and even though this order started after the probable creation of the MS, the theme is of course much older.

The Order of the Golden Fleece was created in 1430.
By 1435, there were already 4 chapters in the Order: Bruges, Lille, Dijon and Brussels. 
I don't know why you say it's too late, to me this seems to be exactly on target!

Right, I had seen a later date somewhere, I believe in the 16th C, but this does not seem much of a concern after all.

I've never seen that Golden Fleece emblem before (the one that looks like a ram hanging by a grappling hook).

It certainly is reminiscent of the upper-right pond critter! I always wondered why the posture was so odd and semi-dead looking and it always looked a bit sheep-like to me.

Dear Colleagues,

Am I mis-reading the trend of this thread, or have we leapt from wondering what sort of creature might be intended, to one suggestion of its being a sheep ( something which, on iconographic grounds, and in the practical terms of the sheep's bone-structure and habits seems doubtful to me) - to presuming that the maker intended to draw a sheep, re-defining the probable date for first composition of the image (something also unknown) and from that to trying to rope it in to a theoretical 'history' for the manuscript relating to Germany?

Seems all a little premature, just yet.

Have we any other reasonable suggestions about what sort of creature this was meant to represent?  I have to say that from my point of view, the sort of fleece which forms big, soft lumps came from cross-breeding with merino sheep, and I think you'll find that did not occur in the north, in any case, until somewhat later.

I may be mistaken, but like so much else in this manuscript, possibilities which arise have questions attached to them which require solutions of a kind which can only be sensibly reached by historical research.

So, my two cents worth: the creature looks to me like a type of lizard or skink.